Realistically idealistic daydreamer, seasoned procrastinator, atheist and monarchist with a secret agenda and a slight inclination towards voodoo practices.
An Afghan man faces the death penalty for converting to Christianity, an Afghan supreme court judge said on Sunday.
Supreme Court Judge Ansarullah Mawlavizada said that Abdul Rahman, who converted from Islam to Christianity, is in police custody and that he could face the death penalty if he refused to become a Muslim again.
Sharia law proposes capital punishment for any Muslim who converts to another religion.
Jesus wept..
Some "religion of peace" you guys have going on here.
PS. From my comments on the subject:
As per Islam, people are all born Muslims, therefore you can't really convert to Islam, you "revert" to Islam. What if some bright mind somewhere there desides that everyone who is not Muslim is actually a convert to another religion, and deserves capital punishment??
Thoughts??
PPS. The End.
Thanks everyone for their contributions. I enjoyed this discussion, and I hope that many of us learned something from it. I am closing the comments section on this post now. Thanks again! - March 23, 8.40am
I tend to judge the religion by it's preachers and followers, and by the acts done in the name of that religion.
So far when it comes to the actual acts, Islam has shown me very little of what it can be proud of.
And there is no use telling me that it's only "select few radical freaks" who are responsible for all this mess. Dumb following, silent ignorance and lack of action in preventing the horrid things from happening are as bad as actually doing those horrid things, if you ask me.
Jesus, Mohammed and whoever else is up there watching us these days is definitely going to need a generous supply of Kleenex.
true derived shariah calls for the death of an apostate. True there is a 'basis' for it within islamic literature.
Personally I don't agree with death for apostates based on islam. And know that others also disagree. Its more of a matter of interpretating Islam rather than islam itself.
That said.. I don't think "peace" is without violence at times. But the act of forced conversion, being contrary to islam and the very human attribute of free will is against the notion of peace.
Something more Muslims probably should be evaluating.
All true. But have you thought about something else involved here? As per Islam, people are all born Muslims, therefore you can't really convert to Islam, you "revert" to Islam. What if some bright mind somewhere there desides that everyone who is not Muslim is actually a convert to another religion, and deserves capital punishment??
1. Any person (i.e., Muslim) who has changed his religion, kill him.[3]
This tradition has been narrated by Abu Bakr, Uthman, Ali, Muadh ibn Jabal, Abu Musa Ashari, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Khalid ibn Walid and a number of other Companions, and is found in all the authentic Hadith collections.
2. Abdullah ibn Masud reports:
The Messenger of God stated: In no way is it permitted to shed the blood of a Muslim who testifies that "there is no god except God" and "I am the Apostle of God" except for three crimes: a. he has killed someone and his act merits retaliation; b. he is married and commits adultery; c. he abandons his religion and is separated from the community.[4]
3. Aisha reports:
The Messenger of God stated that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim other than for the following reasons: a. although married, he commits adultery or b. after being a Muslim he chooses kufr, or c. he takes someone's life.[5]
4. Uthman reports:
I heard the Messenger of God saying that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three situations: a. a person who, being a Muslim, becomes a kafir; b. one who after marriage commits adultery; c. one who commits murder apart from having an authorization to take life in exchange for another life.[6]
Uthman further reports:
I heard the Messenger of God saying that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim with the exception of three crimes: a. the punishment of someone who after marriage commits adultery is stoning; b. retaliation is required against someone who intentionally commits murder; c. anyone who becomes an apostate after being a Muslim should be punished by death.[7]
I hope and pray that The "All Knowing" would forgive whoever it is that is being wronged by this case. As for all the quotes here on the comments about "being muslim and turn to Kufr". If this is truly applicable, I wonder how many so called muslims would be sent to the gallows.
ok..my "personal" opinion on this issue is as follows;
In Quraan it says: "la ekrah fe aldein" meaning; there is no compulsion in religion.. another ayah in Quraan says: "lakom denukom wa leya dein" meaning; I have my own religion and you have yours.. from these two ayahs, i really see nothing but the tolerance of Islam..and even at the time of the Prophet, there were Christian and Jewish people living in Madinah and some of them were actually the Prophets' neighbors..
I truly believe that Abubaker and other companions fought the converters to achieve one goal which is to stop these converters from influencing and confusing other Muslims..because at that time, lot of people were new enrants of Islam and they didn't know that much of this religion..
In conclusion, I don't believe that any converter of Islam should be killed, instead, he should be educated to clear his confusion.
One last comment to butterfly: do you consider all Christians as bloody oppressors? coz u know, Hitler was!
(sorry for any spelling mistakes, didnt proof reading that :P)
I think christianity was a very oppresive religion in the past, you know, with the inquisition and all that. But now is very tolerant and peaceful. Perhaps the time has come for Islam to practice the same :tolerance and peace.
One more thing, Ahmed, check your facts, Hitler was not a christian, and his crimes were never done in the name of christianity.
Still in Doha? :^) I would say that sometimes violence is needed to combat the act of violence. I am not into the "turn another cheek" philosophy. But a peaceful act, such as changing one's religion, does not merit an act of violence as a retribution. Not in my holy book.
Conman,
I did! Ages ago. Lets just say I am less inclined to judge anyone or anything by the book that was written centuries ago. If we pick a Bible up, or Talmud, there are tons of insane things written there. It's up to the people of today to choose whether to have modern common sense or not. But sadly, just as Ella writes after you, Muslims mostly tend to interpret their religious teachings this way: "It isnt for us to say i agree or i dont." Makes you think, doesn't it?
Ella,
Thanks for the interesting twist. The questions I would like to ask after reading your comment are: why do you consider Islam universally "great" for everyone, and how should a Christian react to your remark of "moving from top to bottom" (i.e. converting to Christianity from Islam). As for the millionaire story - well I might not let my child to become a rubbish collector, but should he choose to do so anyways I would certainly NOT try and kill him for it. I agree with you on one thing - at times, capital punishment is the only way to deal with criminals, in my opinion. But definitely not in this case.
Jack,
I am yet to figure out why you have such an enormous chip on your shoulder when it comes to all things Muslim? :p Thanks for the quotes. Once again, I point out that these things were said/written centuries ago. People of today can choose what to follow, and what to leave burried in the sands of the past as obsolete. The question is, when they will start doing it.
Dynamight,
Welcome, I don't recall seeing you here before. Thanks for joining in. As for your comment - yeah I guess it would seriously cripple the Muslim population of the world. Lets just hope it doesn't get that far.
Ahmed :^)
Fun fun fun. Quran says many different things on any given subject, and once again it's up to the people to choose what to follow and how to interpret it (although Ella disagrees), so I won't even go there. Quran also says (in many chapters) that I am worse than a pig, etc. etc. (as a non believer), but since I don't find pigs particularly repulsive I will let it slip :p So much for the book. But here I am not talking about the book! You said: "I don't believe that any converter of Islam should be killed, instead, he should be educated to clear his confusion." Woah! What if he isn't confused and doesn't need any education? Do you believe that people of other faiths who convert or revert to Islam need to be educated to clear their confusion? All in all I actually agree with you - education is way better than death sentence. Educate him all you want, just don't kill him if you fail, for goodness sake.
Oh and by the way, Hitler was one crazy f***ker, but somehow I don't recall him doing what he did in the name of any religion. So example doesn't really fit. Besides, did he specifically target non Christians? I would say he took out mostly fellow Christians and Jews. There are enough maniacs of various beliefs in this world, but sadly it is mostly Islam that gets the honour of endorsing horrendous crimes, and not any other faith. And once again, this is NOT what I am talking about here. I am talking about death sentence as a punishment for leaving Islam and what people of today (and most importantly, people who I know and communicate with) think about it.
And while I was writing my answer, I got more comments! Love that. Keep them coming!
Butterfly,
You are right.. You know well enough how peaceful Christianity was in the beginning :^) Your areas enjoyed the best of it. I am not sure what I would choose, to be honest, Taliban of today or the inquisition of yesterday! And yes, I do hope that Islam folk will follow suit and reconsider (re-interpret, rather) a chapter or two in its teachings. Oh and you say Hitler was not a Christian?? I thought he was, to be honest. That's it, back to the history books... However, I can be forgiven for this lack of knowledge as his religion was never a factor of any importance. For all I know, he could be a fellow atheist, and nobody would ever bother.
Ella,
Are you serious??? :(
Lost and Found,
There are more than enough states that do practice it, sadly.
I know everyone is sick of hearing the "moderates".. but here goes.
This is NOT in the name of MY Islam.
Yes, QC, you are right- it is time for some serious reformations- Christianity was just as bloody (if not more so during the Crusades.. but has moved with the times)
Comparitively, Islam is still a young religion and I believe will also evolve, It has to. That doesn't mean abandoment or desecration, just thoughtful analysis (which has already started btw)
As for your thoughts about converts vs reverts- sadly, you are right- if someone can justify ploughing a plane into a building, their logic is probably twisted enough to decide everyone deserves capital punishment. The only solution to all this is education. Education, Education, Education.
There is a serious flaw in any education system that stresses memorization and doesn't teach analysis- which is sadly the case in countries where militant Islam is alive and well.
That's exactly what I need - the voice of moderates, not the extremes. You and others like you are the people that restore my faith in essential goodness of Islam as a great religion, among other great religions.
Conclusion: We need more chicks!
On a more serious note - I believe you are right. In everything you said. I just hope Islam doesn't take centuries with its thoughtful analysis. It's easier to analyse stuff these days, with all the technology and resources. Easier to arrange meetings and discussions, correspond, educate, even instill values through compulsory education.
It's outright pathetic. It makes me further wonder how imperfect and unrighteous it could be when I read a CIA factsheet about why Islam was the fastest growing religion in the world. They cited growing Islam to be in developing countries where poverty, illiteracy, and over-procreation where ritualistic to Islamic growth.
It makes sense that rarely anyone is allowed to convert out of it while into it they are open with wide arms. Islam may be the last monotheistic religion, yet rarely do you hear anyone stating it being as the youngest (with multiple connotations intended).
Ok, I will correct myself: he was born into a catholic family & background. But at the end he totally lost it and he even plotted against the Vatican cos they did not follow his version of "christianity" and the Church was against the Nazi invasion.
I really like to hear from moderate muslims. Refreshing.
The source was logic, since people in Arabic nations are all pretty much born islamic.
As for "Ella"'s comments, I'm disgusted. Thank god that in the civilized world, your type of thought died decades ago. We have it built into our code of laws that everyone is born equal, no matter religion, race or gender. And yes, you were saying that Islam is the greatest religion, and that all else are below it.
I think "Confused Arab Chick" got it best with: "There is a serious flaw in any education system that stresses memorization and doesn't teach analysis- which is sadly the case in countries where militant Islam is alive and well."
I agree wholeheartedly, and its a bloody shame. Islam, the way it is currently being practiced, does not deserve to exist.
I hear ya. That CIA factsheet, that was neat. First when I read it few years ago, I was really surprised. But by now it all makes perfect sense.
Butterfly,
Oh I see. Yeah I thought he was a Catholic.
Irony,
Precisely. How many versions of Christianity are there? I lost count. All of them evolved through time to become what they are now. Nobody is generally suffering because of that, and Christians have many choices. Certainly nobody kills people for turning away from Christianity. And yet although there are only two main branches of Islam, Shia and Sunna, all they do is fight each other. So perhaps you are right, and Islam is just not ready for this kind of variety.
As for the source (and I am surprised you asked it of me, I thought it was a common knowledge): As per Quran, everybody is born in submission to Allah, i.e. Islam. Born as a Muslim is the innate nature of every child. Qur'an 59:1 or 61:1 : "All that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth glorifies Allah." The parents or the community may convert children to Judaism, Christianity, other religions or atheism. They deviate from the original path of Islam. Therefore it is more valid as per Islam to say that people revert to Islam rather than convert, as they are back again to the original path of Islam. And more here: "'Revert' is actually a more appropriate term than 'convert', since all human beings are born pure. By embracing Islam, one returns to the original and sinless state in which God created him or her." - from thetruereligion.org
ok, this is what God said, if you convert to anything else, you get killed, he knew the law, he could've moved elsewhere and then converted, as he can't practice Christianity in such lands.
Hold your horses, mate. Nothing is wrong with moderate Islam. Nothing is wrong with Ella either, she is just a product of her society and upbringing. Therefore what she says also makes perfect sense. Is it her fault she was taught not to question? It is, however, her choice whether to start questioning (like Chick over here) or continue memorising and repeating (like Irony over there).
Matt- "Islam, the way it is currently being practiced, does not to deserve to exist"?! That statement is a bit of an extreme- yes, there are A LOT of problems with militant Islam.. but there are many causes as well.. one of the biggest factors being that Militants view as an attack on Islam (in the form of Iraq and Palestine)- but that is not the issue. The fact is, extremists remain a minority- the majority of Muslims are people trying to make a living and mind their own business. It just so happens, like in any other circumstance, that the extremists are a lot louder than the moderates (neo-conservatism for example). Extremists are louder and therefore attract more attention- that does not mean that all Muslims are extremists or that a religion should not be allowed to exist... Just felt the need to clarify that!
As for the revert thing- first of all, most Arabs are Muslims- but definately not all, there around 10 million Copts in Egypt- Lebanon has a large Chrsitian population, if not a majority.. Syria, Iraq, Bahrain, Palestine.. all these are Arab countries with Chrisitan populations. Bua agin, not the issue- fact is, Islam does consider everyone Muslim- in the sense that, there is no "initiation" ceremony, if you will. All people and animals are born Muslim. Irony, I don't have a source other than my high school religion teacher- sorry! You might wanna ask around, but I'm pretty sure of what I'm saying.
I apologize if I sound a little angry- but saying that anything "does not deserve to exist".. is a bit much in my book, no matter who is saying it.
QC, its happening- you just have to look for it. Amina Wadud was recently in Qatar- look her up. Also, there many online sources promoting "moderate" Islam- try www.muslimwakeup.com
Question remains: Do you also think he deserves to be killed? And if he does, do I deserve it, too, for turning away from my "original" state? As Islam also teaches us that we are all born Muslims. (Yes Irony, I've read Quran too, you know).
Once again, you rock. And yes I do read up on everything that is happening around me, although I didn't hear about Amina Wadud, although you say she was in Qatar. Will certainly look her up. And I am pretty sure Matt meant that terrorism and fundamentalism (as well as pure brain stupor when it comes to change) are the things that we are probably better off without, whether Islamic or not, and not the whole religion, whether Islam or any other.
Thanks- I don't think it's so much that i "rock", but more that what I say needs to be said sometimes, and so many people are busy living their lives to care too much- they just assume people know that "moderates" exist, because they know that they exist. Obviously, doesn't work that way.
Anyway- I hope my input helped in some way or another-
"I am yet to figure out why you have such an enormous chip on your shoulder when it comes to all things Muslim?"
When someone pisses on my leg, tells me it's raining and I grab thme by their yaya ... and prove to them by their own words they are full of camel dung.
I don't call it a chip ... I call it ... calling a spade a spade.
As these comments show ... the spin continues ... and my leg is soaking wet!
Christianity has done its fair share of damage too.
I'm reluctant to say too much against Islam as it's a really divisive issue in my country (Australia) at the moment, and I absolutely disagree with people being discriminated against on the basis of their religion.
That said, the situation you posted about is awful.
As per Islam, people are all born Muslims, therefore you can't really convert to Islam, you "revert" to Islam. What if some bright mind somewhere there desides that everyone who is not Muslim is actually a convert to another religion, and deserves capital punishment?? >>
People can decide any loony thing they want. The question isn't about 'if something can be derived' but if it is the RIGHT thing to derive. What is being done here is a prime example, Islam in the end is blamed. No one tends to question if Islam really supports these notions. Or if it is rathers from ones interpretation of things. So can we really blame religion? Or shouldn't man be blamed?
Ella Said "I am nobody, to say whether or not this is a correct form of punishment. It isnt for us to say i agree or i dont"
Actually if your Muslim ella it is your right and your duty to stand up and say. The idea that we are to shut up about what we may deem as right or wrong because some 'scholar' has made a claim on it already is a notion far removed from Islam. Qur'an informs us over and over again, we are responsible for ourselves, we can not follow others simply bcause they claim it to be right. We have an obligation to ourselves, as claimed believers in God, to find out the truth. And if one is wrong, no matter what they claim, we are to stand up against it. No getting around these basic Qur'anic teachings.
Jack "1. Any person (i.e., Muslim) who has changed his religion, kill him.[3] "
question for you, can you tell me how many apostates Muhammad pbuh himself killed for simply being apostates? No other offense, just being apostates.
butterfly "Islam is not a religion of peace. That's a fact. "
actually that would be an opinion. As a Muslim I would stronly disagree.
"Peace to be achieved thru violence? this is how somen radicals make their brutal crimes sound right. "
If a person brakes into my home and starts to violently attack me and my family, I will kill them or attempt to kill them by any means I have available in order to obtain the safety and peace within my household.
If a brute ruler comes and takes over the land in which I live and does nothing but cause destruction and oppression I will use violent means to fight against his regime. In order to restore peace.
If an army comes and starts to ethnically cleanse the land, seeking to kill off one section of people. I will stand up as violently as i can be in order to keep that from happening.
Am I a 'radical' seeking to instill 'brutal crimes' in any of these cases?
Cat "but sadly it is mostly Islam that gets the honour of endorsing horrendous crimes, and not any other faith."
Religion has always been used to endorse uncalled for violence. Very few religions have been free from this. I don't think Islam hold some monopoly on this.
For some reason, I don't really understand most of the posts since my last one.
But, I do agree with the things I understood from most of nzingha's comments.
It IS a Muslim's duty to defend their faith and stand up against oppression/misogyny/abuse/compulsion/persecution.. whatever horrible things somebody decides to do in the name of your faith.
If you want the rest of the world to respect Islam's core values, you have to stand up for them- the burden of understanding the "true beauty" of Islam does not lie on non-muslims alone.
Demonstrations against the War on Iraq are great- but that about demonstrations against the things "Muslims" are doing to one another IN Iraq? Shaking your head and changing the channel doesn't cut it.
I'm not saying I'm some activist- I don't do enough either, but I try- and anyone who still chooses to identify as a Muslim (as I still do, although sometimes I have to wonder why)- should.
OK it appears we have 4 major groups here: non Muslim commentators who tend to look without much sympathy at the whole of Islam, non Muslim moderates, Muslim moderates and a little less moderate Muslims. However, I think everyone agreed that a person shouldn't be killed for converting to another religion. So far so good. Moreover, some of Muslim moderates voiced a strong support of reform and change in Islam. It brings to my memory those history books and events of centuries past, with Luther and the like reforming, teaching, changing, achieving, failing and the outcomes that shaped Western world and its religion into what they are today. Yes, centuries ago it was a crime to be a non Christian in many Christian countries. But we should not compare "then" with "now". I hope you will all agree with me on that. And here my main question is "Why is it happening today? Who is responsible? What can we do now to prevent these things from happening?". I agree with Nzingha. Sometimes violence is needed to restore peace and order. And I, for one, won't go to a casual meeting with the likes of Osama holding an olive branch.
I am sorry this poor guy has to die because of someone's primitive, medieval, barbaric take on what has a great potential to become a modern, moderate, peaceful religion. Potential is there, it's up to Muslims to make it happen.
mmm i think this is a bit late, but what should i do..this is a really HOT post..
QC, I dont recall that in Quraan, non-muslims were described as pigs..please tell me where did u find that :)
i find Islam as a perfect religion, hence, yes i believe that a converter of Islam should be educated so he gets back on the right track! :D
P.S (many of the things done by some (Muslims) these days are not related to Islam at all..things like terrorism, violance..etc are happening in the NAME of Islam..
You consider only Muslims to be on the right track? Why? :^)
As for your question - Here is your answer:
[5:60] Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of God: those who are condemned by God after incurring His wrath until He made them as despicable as monkeys and pigs, and the non believers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."
It's lucky that I don't believe in any 7th century nonsense such as this, otherwise I'd have to boycott you, I guess :p
This after all was bound to happen. The flood of comments! Sadly, religion is the only thing that's sure to evoke response, when today, it should ideally be the last thing. You know, I sometimes wonder, why when people try and debate over religion or whatever... Islam is the first religion everyone talks about... I sometimes wonder, why out of the top 100 people most wanted in the world, 80 are muslim... I sometimes wonder, if it's Islam that encourages terrorism, or if terrorists convert to Islam to give some sort of purpose to their violent acts of aggression. Then I remember,a wise man --- the head of Al Jazeera Channel say last year: "No. All Muslims are not terrorists," he said firmly, then in a softer tone, "Unfortunately, most terrorists are Muslim." I hope you understand what I am saying. You're right when you say you can't judge people by what was written in a book centuries ago. But it's sad what was written centuries ago, stuff like "pay tax by their head if they disbelieve in Allah or Islam" is still being executed. Take for example the beheadings of Eugene Armstrong, Daniel Pearl and the likes. What did they do, what was their fault? Nothing. It's just that some fuckin idiots out there while chanting Allah Ho Akbar, we're the warriors of God, took a knife and started ripping their heads off their necks, and they did. It's sad that some (read:most Muslims) still believe the crap that's written in the Quran, thinking it's the order of God. They're uneducated. And they refuse to learn. It isn't that I can't stand Muslims,. or I sit away from them when they come near me. Bullshit. Religion means absolutely nothing to me, but when it comes to the crap that they do and say, I can't help but feel like stuffing their mouths with an atom bomb. I'm outta here.
Do you really believe we cannot read and understand!
Muhammad pbuh had blood on his hands.
Here you go. All from Bukhari.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:
Narrated Jabir:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."
And finally, from The Life of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq.
In Mohammed's lifetime, he ordered the assassination or the execution of individuals who satirized him. His actions are the foundation for why it is a criminal offense to satirize, speak ill of, or in any way publicly deny the authenticity of Mohammed's mantle, mission, and message.
Here are two historic examples of Mohammed orchestrating the assassination of someone who satirized him: (Please Note: the following accounts are recorded by one of the most respected Islamic historians in the world, Ibn Ishaq; his work dates from the 700s A.D. THESE ARE NOT THE WORDS OF A DETRACTOR, BUT RATHER OF A DEVOUT MUSLIM.)
Example 1) Ibn Ishaq recounts the killing of "the enemy of God" named Ka'b son of al-Ashraf. After Badr, Ka'b "began to inveigh against the apostle…" He wrote satirical verses of poetry that were insulting to Mohammed and Islamic women. Mohammed said, "Who will rid me of the son of Ashraf?" Muhammad son of Maslama said, 'I will deal with them for you, O apostle of God, I will kill him.' He said, 'Do so if you can.'" Mohammed then gave the assassin permission to lie and deceive the target of his wrath. Amazingly, the killer recruited the victim's foster brother, who had become a Muslim. Together, with the foster brother having the victim's confidence, they led him on a midnight stroll pretending to visit and conduct business with him. On signal, they lunged on him. The assassin reported: "I thrust [my dagger] into the lower part of his body, then I bore down upon it until I reached his genitals, and the enemy of God fell to the ground... Our attack upon God's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life" (See page 365 -- 368, Ibn Ishaq)
Example 2) Tragically, we see that women are not exempt from this type treatment. When Abu 'Afak was assassinated for publicly speaking against Mohammed's killing of another man, Asma daughter of Marwan wrote verses of poetry against Mohammed for Abu 'Afak's murder. Ishaq records: "When the apostle heard what she had said he said, 'who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?' Umayr... who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he (Mohammed) said, 'You have helped God and his apostle, O Umayr!' When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, ' Two goats won't but their heads about her...'" (Ibn Ishaq, 675-676)
Source: The Life of Mohammed; Ibn Ishaq. Translated by A. Guillaume. Oxford University press, Pakistan, 1967.
Jack I have all of those sources and than some. Do you think Mulsims are ignorant?
Again I ask you Jack a very simple and percise qeustion. Either answer it or state you don't know. How many people did Muhammad pbuh Kill for being apostates and there was NO OTHER OFFENSE??
Kab nor Asma were apostates. Nor where they as you depict them but that is an entirely different issue.
conman "It's sad that some (read:most Muslims) still believe the crap that's written in the Quran, thinking it's the order of God. They're uneducated. And they refuse to learn."
Actually All Muslims believe what is written in the Qur'an. And unlike your depiction we are not all uneducated cave dwelling idiots refusing to learn.
Cat your a bit off on your quotation. unless of course your a hypocrite.. well more to the point a specific group of Jews who were made to be like apes for breaking the sabbath.
And yes I believe my religion to be superior to all others. And yes I believe others who don't submit to Islam as being in error. Doesn't make me a horrible person, in fact many people of many various faiths believe the same thing. What is important is that I accept that people won't become Muslim, that most will reject.
If I felt any differently, or that another religion was better than my own. Why in the world would I choose to be Muslim??
last comment I promise, maybe I should respond all at once. blaah
"And here my main question is "Why is it happening today? Who is responsible? What can we do now to prevent these things from happening?".
The muslims are responsible of course. And the Muslims will first have to set out to change things any 'non muslim' or foriegn lead on change will only be recieved with what it has been. Total blind rejection and violence. Yea we'll cut off our nose to spite our face.
but one thing that needs to be understood globally is that it isn't an issue with Islam per say as it is an issue with Muslim behavior and appliation of what they feel has some Islamic approval.Right now the world is no where near that, much of that is to be blamed on the Muslims ourselvs. But the non Muslim world can also take some credit for it.
I must say that the bible makes very little sense to me. I have been told a thousand times that it's not what it says but what it "means". Still, no sense... So I ditched the book many years ago and decided to take Christianity "my own way". Judging by what I have read so far of the Quran, that book is a complete nosense to me! If it's true that Prophet Muhammed was killing everyone who made fun of him...wasn't him a bit of a nutter???? I mean..., plenty of people made fun of Jesus, but he didn't killed anyone! There are some that have insulted me, but I wouldn't kill them, for god's shake, just ignore the insult!
It is as I thought - Muslims for some reason universally believe (and worse, INSIST) and are universally sure that their religion and their ways are the only universally correct ones. I am sorry but I can't accept that.
Nzingha, I might be off with my quotation as I don't speak Arabic, and the sources available to me are all translations, however I did check a few and compared the language before writing. Now how does that make me a hypocrite I don't really understand. Especially since you know very well that Quran is full of much less flattering ayas addressed to non believers. That was just one from the top of my head, and even that was quoted in good humour.
It is also sad that it is universally impossible to hold a discussion regarding religion (you are absolutely right, Conman) without ending up as two camps fighting against each other. A mini version of what's happening in the world, if you please. Somewhere along the way my initial question was all but forgotten, and the conversation moved on to new heights.
More disturbing conclusion now is that Muslims not only believe their religion superior to them, they also insist that it is UNIVERSALLY superior. I think believing in God in general is nonsense, but even I, a non believer, an atheist, would never dare to say that my way of thinking is superior to anyone else's. How come so many people try to tell me that what they believe is superior to what I believe? At least I don't believe in violence in the name of anything I believe in. If someone breaks into my house and threatens me and my loved ones I will of course fight back, but without giving a second thought to any religion or lack thereof.
And from Nzingha (who I hold in a very VERY high respect, by the way) I hear that Muslims will not change unless they themselves decide to change. Well how is it possible, if they are universally correct and superior in their beliefs?
Everyone's religion is superior to him or her. But it doesn't meant that everyone else should share the opinion, or that their religion should be forcefully imposed.
QC: no one said that ones' religion should be forcefully imposed to others. I believe in Islam, I believe that Islam is the perfect religion and I find Quraan as one miracle from God. Now, I know you do disagree with what I've said, does that make me feel that my thinking is better than yours? Absolutely not!
and guys please, NOT all hadiths are credible..I'm 28, I'VE NEVER EVER heared that the Prophet have ordered to kill someone who made fun of him!!!
Im really sick of people who are making fun of our religion or our prophet!
one last point: why dont you understand that these bin laden qaeeda fuckers are NOT related to Islam?!! they have been horrifying us here in Saudi, they have been killing innocent kids and women here in Saudi!! we ARE suffering just like you.. STOP referring them to Islam!!
Thanks for your words. I am glad we don't have to argue to make our points. And no I don't disagree with what you said :^)
Further:
I am 30 and I've heard a fair few times about cases where the Prophet ordered to kill people. Now I wasn't there at the time to witness it, and neither was anyone alive today, and I won't take anyone's word for it. I am not concerned with what happened then, I am only concerned with what is happening now. Moving on.
Nobody here is trying to make fun of your religion or the Prophet, I won't allow it on my blog. Discussion - yes. Making fun - no.
And I guess I will stop relating "Bin Laden Qaeda fuckers" to Islam when they stop relating themselves to Islam, and when the whole of the Muslim world denounces them. However, on the contrary, they are quite popular in certain places, and have a strong (exclusively Muslim) following. And once again, we are not talking about this scum. I do not judge Islam by these excrements who claim they are acting in the name of it. I believe no God would want something like that to happen, and they are in for a shocker in the afterlife.
There is something to be said for Buddhism. The Buddha taught that all religions were a manifestation of the same universal energy, and therefore fundamentally the same. Some are represented by one god, some many, but ultimately they are a creation of man trying to connect to the sacred energy of the universe, and most do.
Buddhism also teaches that all religions are correct, and not to judge people based on corporeal aspects, but on the deapths of their souls.
That being said, any one group that believes it is superior in any fashion to any other group is morally wrong, period. Most of you have said, one way or another, that Islam is superior to all other faiths. What a narracistic, prideful, and self-centered way of being. Ironically, I believe pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. How can you preach that Islam is a religion of peace and love, when it is one of the most unaccepting and intolerant of all faiths?
Question: What do you think of my being non-Islamic ? How have you been told to regard me in this life ?
Oh, and Nzingha (and anyone else who knows better than I do, and I am sure there are plenty),
I still think I got my quotation right, I looked it up in more places now and no, 5:60 doesn't deal with Jews who broke Sabbath. Instead, 2:65-66 is about Jews who are turned to apes for breaking Sabbath. 5:60 precisely states: "(Worse is the case of him) whom Allah has cursed, him on whom His wrath has fallen and of whose sort Allah has turned some to apes and swine, and the non believers. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road."
Are you sure I got it wrong? Because I don't really like to be called hypocrite (which doesn't stick in this case, anyhow) for a wrong reason.
And one more question - this time exclusively to Nzingha. Were you born and raised Muslim, or are you a convert/revert? And if you were not born and raised Muslim, what influenced your decision to become one? If you don't mind me asking? Thanks.
Ha, Mattie, is this a question to me? How do I feel about you being non-Islamic, you little infidel? Off with your head! Submit to the religion of Cat, or die.
LOL
STRICTLY NO OFFENCE meant to any REAL religions out there.
I just think I had enough of being overly serious and watching every word I say, least it offends anyone.
QC, 1. Maybe he does, I don't know the guy, and honestly, he seems stupid to me. 2. You might have read Qura'an, but it doesn't mean you understood it ;)
butterfly asked " If it's true that Prophet Muhammed was killing everyone who made fun of him...wasn't him a bit of a nutter????"
If it were true most of Mecca would have been dead. It isn't true, how someone presents information may make it appear as if it is. However what these same people don't mention is how many people offended Muhammad pbuh and he didn't do anything to them. The personal offenses he fogave, looked past, and lived with. Those that established a real threat to the safety of the community of Muslims at that time were dealt with in several ways. One of which was death. The last time I checked Islam wasn't established in a vacume either, context is an important factor.
Cat "I am 30 and I've heard a fair few times about cases where the Prophet ordered to kill people"
I hope one isn't getting from me that Muhammad pbuh didn't have anyone killed or didn't fight anyone or anything like that. That is simply not the case. However what I asked was if Jack, who claims to know more about Islam and its history than us ignorant Muslims, can provide information on who Muhammad pbuh killed for simply being an apostate.
This is what this discussion started off as. About apostates that the death penalty. Jack provided some ahadith now I'm asking when did Muhammad pbuh himself put such rulings into action. It isn't like there was a lack of apostates during his time, there were plenty to choose from and kill in any violent means chosen.
And since Jack hasn't answered I will, the answer is none. not one apostate was killed by or during the time of Muhammad pbuh for simply being an apostate. Which I believe to be an extremely important factor for MUSLIMS to consider. What non Muslims do with such information isn't important really, Muslims need to consider that and re-evaluate what they regard as "shariah" in this matter.
Cat- I think believing in God in general is nonsense, but even I, a non believer, an atheist, would never dare to say that my way of thinking is superior to anyone else's."
But it is a superior sentiment anyway that you slice it. you think that if believing in God is nonsense right? So those believing in God are believing in nonsense. The fact that you put down the notion of believing in God is a superior stance, because if it was on equal terms with believing in God it wouldn't be stamped as 'nonsense'.
Holding a belief to be superior to others isn't a negative. For instance.. I can venture to say that you hold your belief of not killing an apostate as supeiror, more correct, the best course of action, than killing an apostate right?
If not than your leaving killing an apostate as a possible true, right way to go, and course of action which is equal to your own. So you can't condomen, speak out against, or even call the choice to kill an apostate wrong.
The notion that all religions are equal.. or that each belief is valid in a world where so many exist is a notiong that I can't grasp. Just because I feel Islam to be the TRUTH and the only truth when it comes to God and that it is supeiror to all other beleifs doesn't make a negative. How I act on such a belief is important. But most think that just because someone would believe that they must treat others with inequality, or in negative way and that isn't the case.
I think this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4831426.stm) is the best one I've read so far on the issue. In essence, this is not a debate about what religion is best, or what we all believe in. This is a debate about whether a citizen should have the freedom to practice whatever religion they wish. A fundamental HUMAN right.
It's just unfortunate that one religion does not even respect basic human rights.
And from Nzingha (who I hold in a very VERY high respect, by the way) I hear that Muslims will not change unless they themselves decide to change. Well how is it possible, if they are universally correct and superior in their beliefs?>>
It has to be done on the basis of Islam. Which is an imporant factor because it can't come from the outside but only within. I've read of this Imam in Yemen and he would challenge 'extremists' who believed that killing innocents, and causing havoc upon the earth was the way to go. He challenged them on the basis of Islam, nothing more northing less. He challenge them to support their beliefs in a logical well grounded way that was based on Islam. It is by this that he has changed many 'extremists' and their beliefs.
This is the way for the Muslims. We must challenge notions that are out there. We must challenge it by Islam itself and question and seek the answer to. We must put it all on the table and ask people to actually THINK.
The lack of this is our fault. We caused our nation to stop critical thinking when it came to religion long ago. We stopped holding individual muslims accountable for their own beliefs. We handed over the thinking to scholars.. something ironiclly has been condemned in the Qur'an itself.
Yes we have a VERY long road ahead. And we can either take the challenge on or continue to ruin ourselves while we place blame on everyone one else.
now on to the verses that Cat brought up and than I'll answer the convert question.
First let me say that it is important with any book to put things in its proper context. In regards to 5:60 the whole thing starts in 5:57 I'll paraphrase rather than quote (grab your Qur'ans everyone and read along)
5:57 starts by warning Muslims not to seek protection for those who mock their beliefs. Or those who take it as a sport, mening the hypocrites. The hypocrites have always been the bottom of the barrel bunch within the Qur'an. Because they try to decieve people so much. 5:57 goes on to say that this order to not get protection from them those that mock the religion goes for everyone not matter who it is.
5:58 mentions those who mock or take for sport the adhan (call for prayer) this can be done in many ways, either ignoring it, making fun of it and so on. It fits many different types of mockery and sport
5:59 turns to the people of the book and asks, why do you mock us simply because we believe. What is the real problem with us (Muslims) believing? Madinah at this time was largely filled with Jews and in Ethiopia it was a dealing with Christians (it being a Christian lead country) this is why people of the book are mentioned here more specifically.
5:60 goes on to say that I'll tell you what is worse than what you think we are doing. Who are worse than apes and pigs (animals that were more than looked down on) they are those that worship evil and worse than any in rank, and are far astray from the truth.
5:61 gives detail of who they are.. they are those who come and say they believe, but in fact they don't. They say one thing and than act in another way. No matter their claims of belief they don't believe and this is represented in their actions.
5:62 starts to speak about their actions.. the race into sin and transgression and the eat of things forbidden and they do other evil things
5:63 than aks why don't the rabbis say anything about their wrong actions. It isn't like they don't know they are doing wrong, but they turn a blind eye to it.
5:64-66 go on to address these people, the hypocrites and I don't think I need to go through all of that here.
As you can see 5:60 is swandwiched between a discussion, one which asks the people who condemn Mulsims for their beliefs (more spcifically in the time of revelation it was the Jews and Christians) what is so bad that we do because we believe as we do?? Why is it so bad yet your own congregations are filled with hypocrites? Why don't you focus on your own wrong doing among your own communities before you come to us with your mockery and condemnation.
Given in context cat, I do suggest that this verse doesn't apply to you. Not to say that atheism is clebrated in the Qur'an. The Qur'an does say that you are on the wrong path, misguided, and a sinner destined for hell. But at least your not a hypocrite who are seen far worse and comparable to the very things that people saw (and see) as deplorable.
Cat asked "Were you born and raised Muslim, or are you a convert/revert? And if you were not born and raised Muslim, what influenced your decision to become one? If you don't mind me asking? Thanks. "
I'm a convert of almost 16 years. I wasn't any particular religion before becoming Muslim. We were 'culturally christian' only in that we celebrated christmas, hunted for easter eggs and ate big chocolate bunnies but that is about the extent of it.
What influenced me to become Muslim was Islam itself, more specifically the Qur'an. I'm a convert who didn't know one Muslim before converting and had little to no contact with Muslims until about three years after my conversion. Where I lived at the time there were no Muslims, in fact the person who gave me a Qur'an was a non Muslim. So the only influence at that time in my life was the Qur'an.
I always believed in God, the oneness of God, the trinity was strange to me even stranger was the notion of 'godness'. So that was a main attraction for me, but also I found that I believed more of what the Qur'an presented. The accountablity of mankind, in this life in the next. No one died for my sins and i alone seek the way to forgiveness and a good life. That we were all created, and created from one pair, non being superior based on race, ethnicity or lineage. That we all had the same potential and all no matter what should compete in righteousness not destruction. That the 'non violent' approach was over rated and that I had an instinct to act violently in some circumstances and that this wasn't wrong.. but a state of fitrah.. or nature of my being. I heard the "calling within" as the Qur'an puts it. the calling to what I deem as truth and accepted Islam.
I totally love my religion and being Muslim. I have no regrets, no doubts, and no question regading my belief in God and Islam. That however doesn't apply to 'interpretations' of man when it comes to my religion.
I hope that answers your question.. and nope not bothred at all that you asked. If you want to ask more feel free.. but now its time to prepare for the science fair.. oohhhhh I heard they have a cow at the school, this I so have to see!!
I am NOT preoccupied with what is written in a book over a thousand years old, and what people did over a thousand years ago, who killed who and why and so on. And yes, Fo0f, I am probably not capable of understanding Quran (and Bible, which is even older) as you have rightly noted because I am not a 7th century woman and most of the things written there do not apply to me. However, I do realise that universal teachings of what is right and wrong are beautifully presented in both those books. Although Quran is a little more on a violent side than Bible, and no section goes without some horrid punishment awaiting the likes of me. What's not to understand??
Nzingha, yes I read those verses, thanks for quoting them here again, and thanks for clarifying the whole "hypocrite" issue. And oh yes, show me a society that is not filled with hypocrites these days... so sad. You are right, sigh.
And as for me thinking that believing in God is nonsense and such like, and feeling superior because of that - well I don't really think it's nonsense, wrong word, so many great people around the world believe in God. I don't believe - this is my own choice, my problem if you like, my right. I don't like it when people are removed of their rights to believe or not to believe, and what to believe. If I see a Muslim who is forced to become an atheist, I will cry out foul just the same, trust me.
And no I don't think that Islam does not respect basic human rights. Lets say that I think that certain people who practice Islam nowadays have a very vague understanding of what human rights are.
Good morning everyone and thanks for great comments :^)
Thanks for your answer. How interesting! And of course I absolutely HAVE to say that you are so much luckier than this poor convert to Christianity. Thanks goodness you were not thrown in prison (or worse). What you said about Christianity is exactly why I am so sceptical about it. Trinity? Christ dying for my sins? Blah! I come from a family of hardcore atheists, so I guess my upbringing had a lot to do with what I (do not) believe in :^) Well I am sceptical of every religion, I believe I don't need one to be a good person. Notions of good and bad are pretty much universal. Glad you are happy though and found yourself. You never know, I just might become a Buddhist one day :p
Cow at school?? Please don't forget to post the pics on your page! I so love your photos! :^)
Sorry, almost left without answering your question. It does not say in your comment that you memorise and repeat, and I didn't quote you on that. Your way of thinking, however, does appear to be just like Chick described in her comment, and I quoted her, not you: "There is a serious flaw in any education system that stresses memorization and doesn't teach analysis." Saying that you refuse to question Quran (in your first comment) means that you memorise rather than analyse. Please correct me if I am wrong, it is not my intention here to wrongly assume things which are incorrect. Thanks!
Oh my Budha! 67 comments, Islam is a hot topic I guess.
I think we all agree that Abdul Rahman should not be killed, that converting to any religion of his choice is his legitimate right? Hence, in some muslims countries human rights are violated and inocents are murdered when trying to exercise their right to practice any religion of their choice. Too bad.
Exactly. Only my response is not as fleeting as "too bad". I believe that any organised religion that willfully violates human rights should not be tolerated by members of the international community. I am disgusted that the armed forces of my country (Canada) are there, yet they do nothing more about the situation than slap Afghanistan on the wrist and say "bad baby country".
Thanks. I agree with you now. Questioning and analysing should be there, but something has to be held in place as a cornerstone.
Ha, Butterfly, now it's 69 comments, lol, so I absolutely HAVE to intervene. I agree with you, and this is I hope what everyone else here agrees with - freedom of exercising religion.
Mattie,
I told you, submit - or off with your head! It's your luck that Canada (unlike your neighbour) is not a militant nation. Praise be to Lord.
It's too bad. I don't think it's the actual religion itself that is soo hardcore, rather the interpretation of it by these radical freaks.
Mohammed is weeping just as much as Jesus.